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Offline Snatch

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Wonder what you folks across the pond think of our Gun "problem"
« on: February 17, 2018, 03:06:26 AM »
I'll say straight off I love firearms, bows, etc, and enjoy target practice and would like to start doing some "light" hunting (duck, wild turkey, etc.). I hate overly restrictive rules that impact society at large that remove freedoms and take the responsibility away from the individual.  I also think taking away the tools doesn't solve the underlying problem. In this case the problem is rampant mental illness and a troubled society. However this latest incident in florida has sort of brought guns into the spotlight and to a critical moment that calls for something to be done. Something. Anything.

As much as I wouldn't like it I would sacrifice never being able to by another firearm if it meant one kid would be saved. Truth is, I don't really think a ban on sales would have an immediate impact but just maybe it would result in looneys at the very least being identified sooner. They're focusing on the AR 15 (wrongly referred to as an assault rifle) as it is too easy to pop off number rounds very quickly followed by a quick reload.  To me it should be all rifles as you can still do damage with a bolt action, but the vast majority of these incidents involve the AR 15.

For those of you that have never seen or shot one, they serve no purpose (for the most part) other than target practice or shooting people. They're not a hunting rifle. Fun as heck to go to an outdoor range and nail a bunch of distant targets in rapid fashion but otherwise useless. If you're sane that is. I think they're fun but I wouldn't miss them much.  I have friends that would riot if they were forced to give them up. However, it likely would be a ban on future purchases with  current ownership being grandfathered, so again how effective that would be in the short-term is questionable.  But something has to be done. The massacre at Las Vegas, these school shootings, it just a bit insane. Obviously the manifestation of a far deeper issue than gun control, but if you can't heal a country populated with numerous psychotics, you at least have to hamper them. Of course our FBI couldn't suck more. Tweet that you like children and a team will be at your door the next day, but upload a you tube that you are going to shoot up a school and they do nothing. First things first, the director of the FBI has to be fired, pronto, but then the issue of marginal people being able to obtain firearms needs to be addressed.

Why so many people are Bat shyte crazy is the bigger question, but the reality is there are more than enough of these folks do disrupt society. As to why there's an epidemic of this crazy I don't think anyone knows, but we're failing at something that's for sure. The bottom line is even though it might be painful to many, gun control must be stiffer. Much stiffer.

I wonder sometimes what you guys think of us. stupid for our collective love for guns or a nation of lunatics? Or some mix of both? Aside from religious radicals this doesn't seem to happen anywhere else in the world save Somalia or Sierra Leon. Or do you guys think if guns were readily obtainable you'd be having the same issues?

Offline SimonUK

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Re: Wonder what you folks across the pond think of our Gun "problem"
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 03:35:00 AM »
I was extremely hesitant to reply to this thread, but coming from overseas and living in the US, this is probably the biggest  :005: :005: that we as 'foreigners' come face to face with in US society.
Really I have 2 questions for you to ponder:
1) Do you believe that there is a higher percentage of mentally disturbed people in the US than any other country in the world (if the answer is yes, then why? Surely the best health care system in the world would take care of this)
2) Does the US having the highest number of firearms per-capita, really have nothing to do with these issues?

I am deeply saddened every time one of these makes the headlines, more so when, as Sandy Hook and now Florida, involves innocent children. I do know what the answer is, but I believe blaming it on mental health every time is just politics and does not address the whole issue.

Offline Snatch

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Re: Wonder what you folks across the pond think of our Gun "problem"
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2018, 04:09:16 AM »
I really can't say with any certainty that we have a higher percentage of mentally disturbed people then elsewhere. I can safely say we have allot but can't say attest to whether or not we're in the "lead." That's sort of what I wanted some of you to shed light on.  Forget about the gun killings, we have children stabbing their parents, parents stabbing their children, parents chaining their 13 children to posts in the basement. Whole lotta other crazy going on Simon.   I would argue we do not have the best healtcare system in the world. I'd take Germany's or Japans over ours in a heart beat.. no pun intended. As to mental health? Fail.

I don't know how long you've been here, but going back 20 years or so we had many state institutions where the mentally disturbed were housed and treated. The funding for them evaporated and now instead of being institutionalized these folks are left to their families to deal with. That's part of the problem. Pills for everything is another. I'd have to say my gut feeling is we do have more than our fair share of crazy and I don't know why. Perhaps a combination of many things.  After removing the islamic terrorists the vast majority of these attacks  seem to be unhappy people targeting what appears to be happy people. Not saying this is anything new, just that it's rampant. Maybe you're saying if the guns weren't there this woudln't happen. Its pretty easy to conclude that as you can't committ mass murder with a knife, but I disagree with saying that pointing out there excessive psychosis is political. Not with me at least. Despite my enjoyment of firearms I'm not overly passionate one way or another. 

I do feel, this is an indication of something bigger. That we're failing our kids, and the disaffected. But again, easier to take away the guns then make everyone sane, but is that a lasting solution? No gun? Okay, just hook up with radicals and make bombs. You really thing taking away guns will solve this entirely? I don't. Plenty of ways to disrupt society. Can't take away the crazy that easily, true, but you have to address it. It would be "crazy" not to.

As to there being too many guns floating around and almost no background checks is an easy one. We're obviously up there with Tunisia or some other war zone. As I wrote in my first post something definitely needs to be done. It's way to easy to get guns in certain areas. Where I am in NY its a bit tougher and we have limitations, that can be circumvented of course, but elsewhere in the country its pretty easy.  Again, I do feel we need tougher gun control.

It can't just be guns Simon. Guns don't make people want to kill people they just make it easy. Why do so many poeple want to kill people? Again, I ask those of you from Europe and elsewhere do you have high numbers of murderous people? And let me remind you before guns were as popular plenty of people were getting stabbed. When I was a kid we were in danger virtually every night we were walking alone. I went no where without a knife until we moved when I was older in my late teens. THe US is a violent country. Melting pot my a*s, it's a collection of people that hate each other. At least where I grew up. So I think the issue is twofold: we have allot of guns and we have allot of mental instability. It makes it far more difficult to tackle.



Offline SimonUK

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Re: Wonder what you folks across the pond think of our Gun "problem"
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2018, 04:30:52 AM »
You are right, it isn't just about guns, but it also not just about mental health. I think the point I was trying to make about 'political' is more aimed about the money in lobbying!! And the fact that every time a senseless massacre like this happens no mention is made of guns (by the powers that be) the 1st blame is always mental health, and then we need more TSA type security at schools.

Growing up in the UK, I barely remember at all any reportings of guns being discharged (let alone shootings or mass shootings). Guns are not freely available there, but having said that I am sure that 'bad' people can lay their hands on guns. In contrast (and I stand to be corrected) there are some 300 million firearms(civilian) out here in society, and U would hazard a guess that every single one of those could be sold tomorrow without any form of check or trace.

I hear your points, and I guess I come from a standpoint of growing up in a society where guns were held by the armed forces and the Flying Squad.

Offline Snatch

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Re: Wonder what you folks across the pond think of our Gun "problem"
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2018, 04:58:22 AM »
Yes, it's very politically charged, and disgustingly this is being exploited by both sides. And we have all seen the signs held by the survivors "keep your thoughts and prayers, stop guns" and I can completely understand where they are coming from. I agree there should have been some mention of gun control.

I think that 300 million isn't far off the mark. I've heard it could be up to 500 million. But to keep it in perspective many people own numerous firearms. So I'm more curious as to the number of people who have guns. It's in the millions that's for sure.

Britain is relatively gun free and this country was almost founded by militias. It's quite a contrast when you think about it. Part of the frontier dynamic. A byproduct of self policing.  Guns are a bit too ingrained in our culture.

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Wonder what you folks across the pond think of our Gun "problem"
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2018, 08:25:22 AM »
Polite notice:  We tend not to have politics or guns on here as inevitably the topics always go downhill due the wide differences of opinion.

I'll keep this topic open for now but will lock it without warning should the above occur.  :028:

 :821:

Offline dexradio

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Re: Wonder what you folks across the pond think of our Gun "problem"
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2018, 09:33:36 AM »
Admin

I suggest you delete it. It has no relevance to BMW S1000XR's.

I see enough coverage of this on the news at the moment, this is one of the forums that provide me with a little escape from these events to something I enjoy reading about.

Dex.

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Wonder what you folks across the pond think of our Gun "problem"
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2018, 10:47:50 AM »
I suggest you delete it. It has no relevance to BMW S1000XR's.

The topic is in the "Time Out - General Chat" board so it does not have to be S1XR related.

Board description:  "The place for all non-bike related discussion, i.e. general chat...."

But I agree, there's enough coverage everywhere else  :038:

Offline dexradio

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Re: Wonder what you folks across the pond think of our Gun "problem"
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2018, 11:47:35 AM »
Fair enough, I'll just get my coat ;-)

Dex.

Offline Snatch

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Re: Wonder what you folks across the pond think of our Gun "problem"
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2018, 01:51:08 PM »
*Originally Posted by Forum Admin [+]
The topic is in the "Time Out - General Chat" board so it does not have to be S1XR related.

Board description:  "The place for all non-bike related discussion, i.e. general chat...."

But I agree, there's enough coverage everywhere else  :038:
Thank you for pointing out the to the poster that this was properly posted in the relevant forum, and should it go even slightly downhill I would  not object to it being locked.  I would remind anyone this is a discussion not a news report "covering" the events.  It was an attempt to elicit viewpoints not readily available locally. 

 


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