Author 2022 Dyno Testing  (Read 6167 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

  • Offline NoMoreV4   us

    • XR Member  ‐    31
    • **
    • Topic Author

    Offline NoMoreV4

    • XR Member
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 31
    • Bike: 2022 S1000XR
    • Town: NC
    • Country: us
    2022 Dyno Testing
    on: July 09, 2022, 04:32:29 pm
    July 09, 2022, 04:32:29 pm
    I'm new to this forum. Just joined. However, I am not new to tuning, drag racing, motorcycles in general. I'm fast approaching 4 decades. I don't post very much unless asked to post tuning results even as far as showing the tables to modify in your ECU. I am brand new to BMW. My last bike was a KTM 1290 SDGT that I tuned myself. 170 SAE HP at the tire with just a cat delete. My friend runs a dyno shop 12 minutes from my house (DJ250i). I pretty much go there when ever I want. It is the stingiest dyno I have ever ran on. Why? Because he consistently calibrates it. It is accurate. He has a dedicated dyno room with HUGE ventilation system. The numbers charted are always SAE. We dont cheat with DIN, STD or JIN. SAE is the reference. I have tuned my Vmax1700, Versys1000, GSXS1000F, KTM1290, and now I just dyno'd my 2022 XR. I think there's another he did. I cant remember.

    Again, I'm learning BMW. This is one loud rattling engine. It is one of the slowest bikes I've ever owned. Granted, I've always riddin big bore bikes. Not one you have to wind the crap out of like this one. Getting older and want more comfort without losing to much of the sport. Before I post anything, is there a thread you all post to share dyno results? Honestly, these bikes do not make 153HP stock. They make less. I knew that going in. When you rev this thing, it does go. However, to many times I passed a car and I thought i wasn't going to make it. It blows that I have to downshift 2 or 3 gears to pass. My Vmax would pull your arms out not even touching the shifter. It would absolutely destroy this XR. But, its 180lbs heavier. That's why I sold it.

    Just learned that these bikes 2020+ are wideband equipped. This is a HUGE step forward. That means we just need access to the ECU to adjust target Lamda. You can change your exhaust, reset adaptations, and it will adjust Lamda according to the predefined table. I have a GS911. I am waiting for Woolich to crack the encryption for the 2022 and Ill be good to go. So, what I'm saying is that I think this motor has some serious potential. I don't care about top end power anymore. My dyno was the only time my shift light came on. I no longer beat the sh!t out of my bikes. I want to get rid of that low to midrange hole. I've done this successfully on 3 other bikes. I know what to look for.

    There is a ton of topics Id like to discuss. Actual dyno number are all subjective. Has anyone just did a dyno before and after a full header change on a GEN III? That's another topic. There's 3 gens? 2019 was really a GEN II? Motor changes? I'm slowly seeing this as I take my bike apart and do some reading. What I mentioned above about what these XR's make stock. They do not make 150+ SAE all stock. At the crank its 162 according the the US manual. BMW shows 165. I think BMW started the DIN standard. So you take the DIN to SAE, then account for 11% on average for driveline, these bikes are 146 to 148. People need to stop bloating the numbers  IMHO. To back this up, we all know who Bren Tuning is. Look at his dyno numbers on his web site. He uses a DJ250i. I actually believe he knows what he is doing. If I wasn't a tuner myself, I would just buy his Stage 2. Anyways, he shows 150 all stock STD correction factor. That puts you EXACTLY were I dyno'd at SAE.

    I've seen a few posts here were people say its BS to gain 12HP from just a recalibration. I've proved otherwise time and time again. Not necessarily peak. These bikes are CHOKED by Euro regulations. Some say why modify your bike for 9hp and 6ft lbs torque. If the gain in torque is low to midrange, 6+ is a slap in the face difference and worth the 1500us you just spent. Adding the full header to further increase that midrange is icing on the cake. Now, I wont have to drop 3 gears to pass a Prius...

    Ill post my dyno sheet if you want to see it. I have a full Arrow ordered. About 2 weeks out. Going to dyno with just the header. Then I will flash the ECU when Woolich releases. Should be some nice gains and that hole will hopefully be gone....
    2022 XR

  • Offline esso_sa   ba

    • XR Pro  ‐    200
    • ***
      #1

    Offline esso_sa

    • XR Pro
    • ***
    • Posts: 200
    • Bike: 2020 S1000XR
    • Town: Sarajevo
    • Country: ba
    Re: 2022 Dyno Testing
    Reply #1 on: July 10, 2022, 09:06:46 am
    July 10, 2022, 09:06:46 am
    It would be nice if you could post your stock bike dyno graph.
    I’m very interested to see the AFR graph

    There are couple of threads here where the discussion usually ended in a way that it’s mandatory to remap the gen 2 if you fit the headers on it etc etc
    So it would be interesting to compare the dyno graphs (especially AFR) of the stock setup vs the full header system with stock map.

    What I believe is that the headers on Gen 2 with the stock map will not affect the fueling that much, thanks specifically to its wideband O2 probes.
    Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 09:47:00 am by esso_sa

  • Offline NoMoreV4   us

    • XR Member  ‐    31
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • #2

    Offline NoMoreV4

    • XR Member
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 31
    • Bike: 2022 S1000XR
    • Town: NC
    • Country: us
    Re: 2022 Dyno Testing
    Reply #2 on: July 10, 2022, 02:48:02 pm
    July 10, 2022, 02:48:02 pm
    OK. Dyno sheet is attached. When I did my first oil change I noticed the (2) wide band sensors immediately. I have never seen that before on any of the bikes I've owned. I have confirmed that there is a target Lamda table in the ECU. Any exhaust should adjust as long as it is within the range defined in the ECU. Think about it. I want you to look at the stock header. Observe the length of the primaries as they merge into the first Y. Then look at your aftermarket pipe of choice. IF the primary length and Y is similar in design, the fuel adjustment wont be too much. ALSO, in all the bikes I've tuned, I've taken more fuel away then I have added. AND ONCE AGAIN, this new 2022 is no different. Look at the AFR. It is tuned just the way I expected it. It is safe. I can talk about this for days. Unfortunately, most won't listen.

    I posted up on another forum when I tuned my GSXS1000. I explained to the best of my knowledge what software engineers go thru to calibrate these ECU's. Then they are beat up by regulations. Then have to write compensation into the ECU's for people that not knowingly abuse the hell out of the motor. That's why they are always a little rich after 5K RPM. Then you get a dyno operator tuning non-wideband equipped bikes to 13.3 on a dyno when its 90 degrees out (32 C for my EU friends). What do you think is going to happen when you ride the bike when its 40 F or 4 C and the elevation drops to sea level?   Not only that, 13.2 is TOO LEAN. That is not safe. A dyno is NOT LOADING the motor enough. Every time I tuned my carbed bikes, for max power on a DJ150, I went up 1 to 2 jet sizes at the drag strip. This usually put the bike at 12.9 or 12.8. So, this guy told me he was tired of my "wall of words that went knowhere". He thought he was the expert because he just had his bike dyno'd. The dyno operator also told him there where no gains to be had in modifiying timing tables. OMG. This is how the OEM inserts torque pull backs. I am not dealing with that.

    I'm not an expert, I'm not a pro, I don't do this for a living. But I am a software guy that has been breaking and butchering this stuff, until I figure it out, for close to 4 decades. Just being resilient. Dyno is in a pdf. Let me know if you can view. To keep this simple, I will post another sheet of the header installed with NO re-calibration if someone asks to see it. I believe the AFR will look almost the same. Changing the AFR with never net huge gains. When you see big jumps, it is usually throttle or timing or both. NOW, this bike has Torque management tables or applied torque. These bikes are getting more and more like automotive.....
    2022 XR

  • Offline esso_sa   ba

    • XR Pro  ‐    200
    • ***
      #3

    Offline esso_sa

    • XR Pro
    • ***
    • Posts: 200
    • Bike: 2020 S1000XR
    • Town: Sarajevo
    • Country: ba
    Re: 2022 Dyno Testing
    Reply #3 on: July 10, 2022, 05:09:36 pm
    July 10, 2022, 05:09:36 pm
    *Originally Posted by NoMoreV4 [+]
    To keep this simple, I will post another sheet of the header installed with NO re-calibration if someone asks to see it. I believe the AFR will look almost the same.

    Please do post it, I’m looking forward to seeing it. I completely  agree with your prediction, but there are some hard-headed people (including here, on this forum) that are very convinced by the popular tuning companies (such as BrenTune for example) that re-mapping is mandatory and, of course, their (overpriced) maps are the way to go :001:

    What I keep repeating like a parrot - if you want to squeeze all the power from your full exhaust system, then yes, you should re-map the ECU, but strictly with your bike on the dyno and the map created specifically for it, including the conditions your are going to ride in. Huge NO for the generic ones that are sold by the companies all over the world !
    If you simply want a full exhaust because of its wight saving, better looks and sound, extra power is not your priority, then leave your ECU stock - it will compensate more than enough to keep the bike safe and rideable.
    Even Gen 1 should be fine, despite the fact that it’s equipped with narrow band probes only.

    Earlier here I’ve posted a graph from the new S1000RR, fitted with a full Akrapovic system, stock ECU, and the AFR remained unchanged. That bike is equipped with 2 wideband probes too. This confirms your (and my) theory. The Gen 2 XR’s graph shouldn’t be different. Both bikes use basically the same hardware
    Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 05:58:01 pm by esso_sa

  • Online Antares   gb

    • XR God  ‐    1197
    • *****
      #4

    Online Antares

    • XR God
    • *****
    • Posts: 1197
    • Bike: 2015 XR Sport SE
    • Town: Staines/Kirklees
    • Country: gb
    Re: 2022 Dyno Testing
    Reply #4 on: July 11, 2022, 12:25:32 pm
    July 11, 2022, 12:25:32 pm
    Interesting to see what you mentioned about the claimed BHP vs the SAE, but i'd still like to believe BMW is closest to base, or at the very least other manufacturers would be even lower, such as the 200bhp R1 only really being 180 at the rear wheel or less.

    I'm saying that since I have a Gen 1.0 (2015 and 2016) which are only claimed at 160bhp on BMW website, or 158 in the handbook, now Ducati's Multistrada 1260 is claimed at also 158 bhp and yet the XR walks all over it at any RPM anywhere, by a big margin too.

  • Offline NoMoreV4   us

    • XR Member  ‐    31
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • #5

    Offline NoMoreV4

    • XR Member
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 31
    • Bike: 2022 S1000XR
    • Town: NC
    • Country: us
    Re: 2022 Dyno Testing
    Reply #5 on: July 11, 2022, 03:34:22 pm
    July 11, 2022, 03:34:22 pm
    Well, as for actually "needing" a re-calibration, that is a whole nother long long discussion. I went through this exact same argument with my KTM. And the answer was proven by me and one other KTM member. Yaaaaaaa don't. HOWEVER, because BMW OEM kills power before 5K with timing and throttle like any other OEM, a re-calibration does wonders for drivability. I've had my XR for 2 months now. I've been riding street bikes for 37 years. I cannot believe how many times I bogged or stalled this bike. I'm thinking, Am I just getting old? BUT, I rarely bogged my KTM SD GT. And I improved and stiffened that clutch. That said, there are torque pullbacks all over the BMW calibration. The bike can't be that bad? Again, Euro limitations. I even compared the gearing of 3 sport tourers. Versys 1000 is pretty close. We have a 45T rear. That's high. So, I'm thinking, the OEM kills power down low for a reason and compensates with a gearing adjustment. I'm speculating. The Torque curve will look similar before and after with the XR after a header change. Maybe a slight improvement down low because of the toaster removal. But that hole I believe is all in the ECU. Lemme show you something. Attached is my GSXS1000. ALL that was done is a flash. NOTHING else was touched.

    As for HP numbers. I just try to convert. The US standard is supposed to be SAE "gross". I dug through the USA EPA sight and you can see any vehicle sold in the US, the specifications including horsepower in SAE. BHP is not SAE or STD. Its pretty much the advertised HP at the crank (Brake Horse Power). What the dyno sees is SAE "net". the XR is 165 DIN(Europe tends to use this) to SAE (1.0139) then take 11% for driveline loss and you are right at 147. KTM was the same way. From KW to SAE was 151 I think. every time I do the very simple math, it is within 1 or 2 HP dyno confirmed. A lot of factors can influence why a "lower" HP bike beats a higher HP bike. Weight, rider weight, gearing, aerodynamics and the MOST overlooked.....guess......Rider ability...

    I am so eagerly awaiting the arrival of this Arrow. I ordered direct from the EU. Was quite a bit cheaper to order that way. But its 3 weeks at least. Header is on back order. That's my luck. I got the upgraded silencer because I'm worth it  :038:. Hopefully in two more weeks. One week has passed already. Let me see if I can post this jpeg.....
    Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 03:36:50 pm by NoMoreV4
    2022 XR

  • Offline NoMoreV4   us

    • XR Member  ‐    31
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • #6

    Offline NoMoreV4

    • XR Member
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 31
    • Bike: 2022 S1000XR
    • Town: NC
    • Country: us
    Re: 2022 Dyno Testing
    Reply #6 on: July 11, 2022, 03:49:33 pm
    July 11, 2022, 03:49:33 pm
    *Originally Posted by Antares [+]
    Interesting to see what you mentioned about the claimed BHP vs the SAE, but I'd still like to believe BMW is closest to base, or at the very least other manufacturers would be even lower, such as the 200bhp R1 only really being 180 at the rear wheel or less.

    I'm saying that since I have a Gen 1.0 (2015 and 2016) which are only claimed at 160bhp on BMW website, or 158 in the handbook, now Ducati's Multistrada 1260 is claimed at also 158 bhp and yet the XR walks all over it at any RPM anywhere, by a big margin too.

    Lets try this with your RR. 200 DIN = 197. More HP you make typically the more driveline losses because the driveline must support all of that power. To be conservative, lets say 11.5% instead of 11% is 175. OK, I have seen these bikes make 180 at the tire all day long completely stock!. But the dyno operators keep using STD to bloat the numbers. 175 x 1.02 = 178.5 STD.

    All of this you can find with a Google search. It is crude. But it gets me within a few HP every time. ONLY if the dyno of your choice is well calibrated and accurate. I keep using DJ250I's. They are consistent with SAE standards.
    2022 XR

  • Online Antares   gb

    • XR God  ‐    1197
    • *****
      #7

    Online Antares

    • XR God
    • *****
    • Posts: 1197
    • Bike: 2015 XR Sport SE
    • Town: Staines/Kirklees
    • Country: gb
    Re: 2022 Dyno Testing
    Reply #7 on: July 11, 2022, 05:04:35 pm
    July 11, 2022, 05:04:35 pm
    *Originally Posted by NoMoreV4 [+]
    Well, as for actually "needing" a re-calibration, that is a whole nother long long discussion. I went through this exact same argument with my KTM. And the answer was proven by me and one other KTM member. Yaaaaaaa don't. HOWEVER, because BMW OEM kills power before 5K with timing and throttle like any other OEM, a re-calibration does wonders for drivability. I've had my XR for 2 months now. I've been riding street bikes for 37 years. I cannot believe how many times I bogged or stalled this bike. I'm thinking, Am I just getting old? BUT, I rarely bogged my KTM SD GT. And I improved and stiffened that clutch. That said, there are torque pullbacks all over the BMW calibration. The bike can't be that bad? Again, Euro limitations. I even compared the gearing of 3 sport tourers. Versys 1000 is pretty close. We have a 45T rear. That's high. So, I'm thinking, the OEM kills power down low for a reason and compensates with a gearing adjustment. I'm speculating. The Torque curve will look similar before and after with the XR after a header change. Maybe a slight improvement down low because of the toaster removal. But that hole I believe is all in the ECU. Lemme show you something. Attached is my GSXS1000. ALL that was done is a flash. NOTHING else was touched.

    As for HP numbers. I just try to convert. The US standard is supposed to be SAE "gross". I dug through the USA EPA sight and you can see any vehicle sold in the US, the specifications including horsepower in SAE. BHP is not SAE or STD. Its pretty much the advertised HP at the crank (Brake Horse Power). What the dyno sees is SAE "net". the XR is 165 DIN(Europe tends to use this) to SAE (1.0139) then take 11% for driveline loss and you are right at 147. KTM was the same way. From KW to SAE was 151 I think. every time I do the very simple math, it is within 1 or 2 HP dyno confirmed. A lot of factors can influence why a "lower" HP bike beats a higher HP bike. Weight, rider weight, gearing, aerodynamics and the MOST overlooked.....guess......Rider ability...

    I am so eagerly awaiting the arrival of this Arrow. I ordered direct from the EU. Was quite a bit cheaper to order that way. But its 3 weeks at least. Header is on back order. That's my luck. I got the upgraded silencer because I'm worth it  :038:. Hopefully in two more weeks. One week has passed already. Let me see if I can post this jpeg.....

    Your issue with taking off is not tune related necessarily, the XR has a very light flywheel which means it doesn't have a lot of inertia and loses RPM quickly under load.

    As far as gearing goes, it's fairly standard topping out at about 75 in first gear.
    Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 05:05:32 pm by Antares

  • Offline NoMoreV4   us

    • XR Member  ‐    31
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • #8

    Offline NoMoreV4

    • XR Member
    • **
    • Topic Author
    • Posts: 31
    • Bike: 2022 S1000XR
    • Town: NC
    • Country: us
    Re: 2022 Dyno Testing
    Reply #8 on: July 11, 2022, 05:15:42 pm
    July 11, 2022, 05:15:42 pm
    Yep. I know about the light flywheel. The KTM is the same way. I still suspect that midrange hole in my dyno chart is mostly in the ECU. Ive delt with this before on 2 other bikes. If you look at Bren tuning's dyno charts, he clearly removes the hole without any exhaust changes. My bike is terrible from a standing start. Ive never had any bike this bad. I had an old 750 NightHawk that would crush this bike out of the hole.  :155:

    Once Woolich releases the software for the 2022, Ill show you where the issue is. Well, if its really there. I'd bet a paycheck on it...for sure.....

    If you really want to see, I can show you where it was on the KTM 1290. They suffered from the same but not nearly as bad. That motor was significantly larger at 1301.

    This should remove any doubt. Most dyno tuners dont have a clue what to look for. Some honestly do. But it takes DAYS to WEEKS to perfect a perfect calibration. You Cannot do this in a 2 hour session.

    Oh, forgot to add, there is/was 8 deg timing reduction in the midrange. Look at the stock 3D mapping. U will see it....

    Also, you will see at 20% throttle at about 3500, you can see a hole in timing. This is where we typically launch from. The timing sh!ts/retards when you start moving.

    See it?



    Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 05:41:42 pm by NoMoreV4
    2022 XR

  • Offline Belco100   gb

    • XR Pro  ‐    313
    • ***
      #9

    Offline Belco100

    • XR Pro
    • ***
    • Posts: 313
    • Bike: Gen 2 Racing Red
    • Town: Essex
    • Country: gb
    Re: 2022 Dyno Testing
    Reply #9 on: July 12, 2022, 10:49:43 am
    July 12, 2022, 10:49:43 am
    *Originally Posted by NoMoreV4 [+]

    Once Woolich releases the software for the 2022 ...


    No changes between 2021 and 2022 except colours and Brembo brakes. The 2021 Woolich software will work, give them a call and I'm sure they will confirm. There have been some done in the UK that I know of and was going to get mine done before I decided to re-use my handheld and go the Bren route.

    If you look at the Akrapovic website (the curve, not the numbers) where they have have before and after curves for their full systems and it really is the downpipes that free up the midrange, but the Gen2 isn't as bad as the Gen1 which gave huge gains in the middle - typically 12hp. I done the step by step on mine and the downpipes where definitely the thing that freed the power up, and then the tune and inlet derestrictions gave a bit more at the top and helped with the rideability.





    Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 10:52:29 am by Belco100